Moyers on Patriotism and the Flag -- This is good

[Metgod]

as you all may know, I am very against bush and his escapade to goto war. Well this is a good piece that says a lot. It's scary.. what do you all think of this essay ?


Moyers on Patriotism and the Flag
NOW with Bill Moyers

Friday 28 February 2003

    I put the flag in my lapel tonight. First time.  Until now I haven't
thought it necessary to display a little metallic icon of patriotism for
everyone to see.  It was enough to vote, pay my taxes, perform my civic
duties, speak my mind, and do my best to raise our kids to be good
Americans.  Sometimes I would offer a small prayer of gratitude that I had
been born in a country whose institutions sustained me, whose armed forces
protected me, and whose ideals inspired me; I offered my heart's
affections in return.  It no more occurred to me to flaunt the flag on my
chest than it did to pin my mother's picture on my lapel to prove her
son's love.  Mother knew where I stood; so does my country.  I even tuck a
valentine in my tax returns on April 15.

    So what's this flag doing here? Well, I put it on to take it back.
The flag's been hijacked and turned into a logo - the trademark of a
monopoly on patriotism.  On those Sunday morning talk shows, official
chests appear adorned with the flag as if it is the Good Housekeeping seal
of approval. And during the State of the Union, did you notice Bush and
Cheney wearing the flag? How come?  No administration's patriotism is ever
in doubt, only its policies.  And the flag bestows no immunity from error.
When I see flags sprouting on official lapels, I think of the time in
China when I saw Mao's Little Red Book on every official's desk,
omnipresent and unread.

    But more galling than anything are all those moralistic ideologues in
Washington sporting the flag in their lapels while writing books and
running Web sites and publishing magazines attacking dissenters as
un-American. They are people whose ardor for war grows disproportionately
to their distance from the fighting.  They're in the same league as those
swarms of corporate lobbyists wearing flags and prowling Capitol Hill for
tax breaks even as they call for more spending on war.

    So I put this on as a modest riposte to men with flags in their
lapels who shoot missiles from the safety of Washington think tanks, or
argue that sacrifice is good as long as they don't have to make it, or
approve of bribing governments to join the coalition of the willing (after
they first stash the cash).  I put it on to remind myself that not every
patriot thinks we should do to the people of Baghdad what bin Laden did to
us.  The flag belongs to the country, not to the government.  And it
reminds me that it's not un-American to think that war -- except in
self-defense -- is a failure of moral imagination, political nerve, and
diplomatic skill.  Come to think of it, standing up to your government can
mean standing up for your country.

    What do you think?

    -Bill Moyers

[godaigo]

I think that article was well said and to the point. I have something of a conservative and military background, however, the things that are happening right now can't help but scare anyone who really thinks about them. In fact that may be the problem with people not thinking for themselves and blindly following and trusting in the administrations ability to do what's right and protect them. What do ya'll think?

[Metgod]

oh that is very true

I have no doubt in my mind that the gov't wants to scare the citizens to control them. And it is true, fear does intimidate others.

The gov't is using  something similar to what they are so 'against'. Personally, I think that they are using terrorism as an excuse to goto war (Iraq), and they are using it as an excuse to take away rights (Homeland Security anyone ?).

I had a talk with my uncle who has views similar to some of mine and the issue of fear and not caring enough was brought up.

The gov't causes fear with all the threats they get (hey, what about all that talk about the Internet going to be 'shut down' [which is impossible if you think about it], or other threats of coming attacks.) and  also by the new laws and such.

Crying Wolf I say. Pretty much, the gov't is destroying the US. hell, let's be honest -- they are destroying the world.  

Anyhow, fear does stop some cold. So does blindness. And the truth is, a lot of the US citizens are afraid or whatever it may be, that they don't bother to do anything. I for one am very angry that they are taking rights away (privacy for one).

Now if you want to bring in 'conspiracies' for once, this is similar to what Hitler did. Bush is pretty much following the same steps.

Either way, the point is, the us citizens don't see it, don't care, or are too afraid to do anything. And look where we are now. Bush has done significant damage to the US.

so it's just a matter of time before we either see what happens or we don't. Just my views on this issue.


Met

[wilnix]

I have mixed feelings about this. I can see both sides of this issue so it'a hard for me to push one way or another. Sometimes the est defense is a good offense. Other times a best offense is a good defense. I think the government is doing both by tightening security nationwide and seeking out those who are not just "opposed to the US Gov't" but have violated it's morals in some way. I understand that the balance of power is probably off balanced due to the majority of Americans looking for blood since 9-11 thus giving the Defense Admin the ability to do pretty much anything they want. I also understand that the politicians talk a pile of crap on what they will "sacrifice" without actually going along with the troops that they send into battle. I, personally, live by "Don't have anyone do a job you wouldnt do yourself" and I am pretty surre more then half of the politicians wouldn't / haven't been there or done that.

But let's face these simple facts:

1) After 9-11, how many Americans felt that justice was going to be served to those who had a part in it? ALL of them.
Arguments? Hit the Rewind button, people were pissed...AND who did they look to as a leader to take care of this mess? Bush. IMHO: He stepped up to the plate and has been hitting home runs ever since. He said he'd find who was responsible and he also said something to the effect of "You are either with us, or against us"...Those are big words to live up to and I think he's doing it.
2) Every American citizen wants to be protected, but without giving the Gov't the power to do so. It's true. Depending on how something is stated, people will say two different things.
"We need your approval to tap into possible terrorists phone conversations"
"We need you to sign here, giving us complete access to every American's private phone conversation...including yours"
They basically do the same thing, but are viewed completey different.Again, protect me from the bad guys but without the power to do so...
Yes, I see this as a bad thing to, if misused. But without it and other stuff like this how do you expect the Federal Gov't to PROACTIVELY protect you?
3) Is there proof of bribery from the US Gov't? And then again isn't it the French who mainly opposed to the Iraq Freedom war? And weren't they selling products to Iraq? Isn't that a conflict of interest? And what about North Korea? Oh, and dont forget the Iran Ops people stirring up shit. What do you think about Bin Laden? Hussien? hell, what do you think of Stalin? or Hitler?
4) This isn't like any other war. I know you've heard that a million times from the media, but it is the one thing they've said that makes sense. There's not 1 country claiming war on the USA. There's nobody to specifically point out to end the conflict. There are probably people spread out over almost every country in the world that are part of this. How do you fight them to stop the attacks? Wait and let them blow themselves up killing a mass of innocent people? I don't think so.

The Gov't, like anything else has crooked people in it. This cannot be denied by anyone. But I highly doubt they are all working together to rule the USA, or the rest of the world. I know, I used to work for the Gov't and there wasn't a person in my department that thought anymore about this then anyone else.

The only real flaw I see with the other side of this argument is this:
Let's say we stop fighting this "war" and bring all of our troops home and go back to how it was before 9-11. Then what?
Is it safe to say that something similar won't happen again?

I DONT THINK SO

wilnix

[Metgod]

To be honest....

I wasn't really pissed at all after 9/11. I didn't feel much of anything. Granted I hadn't felt emotions in a long time, but still. Yes, it's sad but things happen. I know some here lost some friends and I am very sorry it happened. But I wasn't *angry*. I'm just not very attached in that way.

Now I dislike Bin laden, Hitler, Stalin and Saddam. But the thing is, I dislike Bush too.

And, I must say I'm quite pissed with Bush and his lies. He is unethical, has no morals and he is a war monger. A privacy invader among  other thigns. He scares the shit out of me and I seriously hope he is voted out of office (though I doubt it ... :\ )

Where in the hell are the weapons of mass destruction he used to warrant this war ?

As far as privacy being invaded to protect the country.. yeah.. right. I don't care what it is. I'd rather have my privacy than worry about the gov't 'protecting' me.

Uhh.. I'm sure there is more but I don't knwo what to say.. Will you made some good points too, I just dislike what is going on and I know others agree with me totally. Others disagree.

*shrug*

Met.

[naund]

I have to agree with wilnix, if Bush had not stepped up to the plate there would have been more attacks on the US.  I lived in Europe for 9 years and I have seen how other counties and their people hate the US.  I am sorry that you do not feel much of anything for the country that supplies you with the right to speak your mind and live freely.  As far as you giving up the protection of the country that you live in so that you can have privacy.  Well maybe you should buy your self an island where you can have all the privacy you want.  I am not saying that I totally agree with everthing that Bush has done, but I still stand behind the Bush.  He is the president and the free people of the US voted him in.  So exactly what lies has Bush told that you are sooooo pissed about.  I would like to hear them.

naund

[Metgod]

Okay.. to clear some things up:

I don't feel much emotion for *anything*; it's not just a specific. In fact, until very recently I hadn't really felt an emotion in years..

I don't see the country as a free country anymore.. If you say something that the government does not like, you can be arrested. So much for free speech. Think abou tthe Patriot Act... (takes more than just free speech). I'm not saying there is  no free speech or no freedom at all, but the fact is, quite a bit has been taken away.

Also take a look at the Homeland Security Act. It takes many other rights away. I'm sorry, but *that* much privacy and rights taken away for protection is not okay.

The lies.. well let me see.. where are the weapons of mass destruction used to warrant the war with Iraq ? He convinced other countries to help him by lying through his teeth about that one. Okay, Saddam is a wicked person and it is good he probably can't do much more.... but the reasons behind the war is not warranted, and is thus a war crime of such. Not sure if you see what I'm saying but it's true if you look at it that way.

I will say this though -- if anything good about the war, it is that maybe other countries will see that the US means business.

Also, Bush is trying to do other things that he has no business meddling with (anti abortion for instance).

I don't know.. there are a lot of things that piss me off about Bush. Truth is, he is a hypocrite and he just irritates me and others too.

I will also say the reason others in Europe and other continents *often* hate the US because we try to police the world. How do I know this ? Because I have friends all over the world and they tell me.. that and it's kind of clear as to why it happens.

Just don't get me wrong.. I don't hate America or the people of america, but I do not like how the government is working nowadays.

Met.

[wilnix]

Good points all around

Free speech has always been limited to the realm of other people's rights. This is very often forgotten.

I'm not one for the war in Iraq either, but my kids have to live here as do their kids someday. Other countries have dealt with terroristic violence in their own ways and it hasn't seemed to work for them. Stay with me. I have a point.

In agreeance, our government has it issues. Bad people are everywhere. This is a fact of life. On the other hand, what country in this world could you go to and here everyone in total saying their government is doing a great job? It just doesn't happen...not to say that we should just settle. As a matter of fact, people with Metgods views are the reason our government gets better because they force change. Your views are well understood and the thoughts are so widespread that its actually a stereotype of the government these days. Is it getting better or worse? Who knows? I hope that it is getting better throughout time, but who can say...

But I cannot judge Bush or his staff on the basis of their actions against the Iraqi leadership. Nor will I judge them if they do the same to North Korea. I say this because people like me know nothing more then what we can read and hear from the media and from what they allow to be told. Are they truly doing good? or is there a purpose of personal gain? I can't say either way, without lying or generalizing.

This is what I know:

9/11 Happened.
Bush and his staff reacted.
I feel more secure, false sense or not, due to his reactions.

I couldnt care less about Saddam's little war factory (existent or not). What do the citizens of Iraq truly feel right now? What about in ten years? or 50 years? we'll have to just wait and see....

Again, we only see what the media wants us to see. Unless someone from Iraq gets online to tell us, we'll never really know.

wilnix

[Metgod]

Good points Will.  

For any good, there will be some bad. That is indeed a fact of life. I know that if I went to another country it wouldn't be any better and possibly worse. I can think of examples. Anyways, you made a very solid point. All governments have their issues. I just feel that Bush is a disgrace to the country.

I guess I'm very against war and what he warranted it on makes it worse, because let's face it, there are no WMD to be found. Or if there are, it's very little.

I feel that Bush has instigated fear himself and has used it on us in order to get his ways. It is very effective too. If you think about it, it does make sense. If you are afraid you'll believe that whoever tells you they will protect you and then you follow them. It's what Hitler did. Granted, Bush doesn't have death camps and I know he won't.. but he's done a lot of things Hitler did to gain power. Propaganda, (ab)using fear. Taken rights away.. and waging war. Hitler did all of that.

I don't know... I seriously hope the government gets back to what it was.  Because as it is, it's not in a good state. Truth is, the US is disrupting the world.. or has started to anyways.

I'm glad though, that others can see my view and at least don't just dismiss it.

I'm up to more discussion on this one.. So please do reply. :)

Met.

[wilnix]

Well, so far he hasn't stuck a cigar anywhere he's not supposed to...that we know of anyway  

But, then again, we are discussing Politicians...

wilnix

[Metgod]

haha.. well, we shall see.. but to reinforce my statement aobut him lying:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/08/sprj.irq.bush.sotu/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/07/07/cnna.wilson/

Amongst others..

Weapons of Mass destruction.. yeah, well I'm still waiting for these to show up.

I just hope the best for the country but we are currentlly distrupting world peace (no matter what reason.. we are still disrupting peace).

Either way, Bush is not a good thing for the country.. I'm sorry to those who like him.. he is a fraud and he is damaging parts of the world including the country he leads. He needs to be put out of power before the country gets much worse.

Met.

[Uneek]

Wilnix and Naund know exactly where I stand on this subject... Bush didn't stick his cigar in anything, that much is true....  Instead he butt-fucked the entire U.S. using false pretenses to serve a personal grudge. It's true that as a nation we elected him... Just like the last election right? hrmmmm... but anyway... it's kinda a moot point and debate at this point...

But...

When Clinton lied... No one died!